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Երկու սենատոր ներկայացրել է Հայոց ցեղասպանության մասին օրինագիծը

Հայամետ հայացքներ ունեցող ամերիկացի երկու սենատորներ` Ռոբերտ Մենենդեսն ու Ջոն Էնսայնը, Հայոց ցեղասպանության մասին օրինագիծը ներկայացրել են ԱՄՆ-ի Սենատում, հայտնում է Ամերիկայի հայկական համագումարը (ԱՀՀ):

«Հակառակ Թուրքիայի կողմից Հայոց ցեղասպանության շարունակական ժխտմանը, մենք ողջունում ենք սենատորներ Մենենդեսի ու Էնսայնի պատրաստակամությունն այս ակնհայտ փաստը վերահաստատելու, ինչպես նաև Ամերիկայի պատմության մեջ հպարտանքի արժանի էջը պահպանելու գործում. Միացյալ Նահանգներն օգնել է գոյատևելու մարդկության դեմ գործած այդ սարսափելի ոճրագործությունից վերապրածներին»,- ասել է համագումարի գործադիր տնօրեն Բրայան Արդունին:

Պատասխան

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17
27.10.2009 00:06
Armenian Patriarchate Records: The Armenian Patriarchate's figure of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire, based on the published archival baptism and death certificates in 1913, is 1,914,620, which presents "precision" to the last digit. Mind you that those records were published in 1913, and no Ottoman official had rejected them at the time. [Raymond H. Kevorkian and Paul B. Paboudjian, Les Arm+®niens dans l'Empire Ottoman +á la veille du g+®nocide, Ed. ARHIS, Paris, 1992].
16
26.10.2009 15:23
fromturkey Today, a group/ethnic called “ Turkye, or Turkye nation" is challenging the number of Armenians in Ottoman Turkey. I mean what was the number of this “ethnic Turks” or Turkey nation“ – “nation of MHP and CHP (CUP) and AK (CUP+MHP)” in 1914!? - Which today dears to dispute the fact of Armenian Genocide and the real number of Armenians in Ottoman Empire and in West Armenian. The talke is about the size of the nation, who is giving non stop the slogan „ turkye , turkye , turkye and turkye only for Turks”. How big was the size of This “,turkye nation“ in 1914/1915? You are writting: “When it comes to ethnic Turks issue, almost all muslims in 1914 were identifying themselves as muslims first, then as Arabs,Kurds, Turkomans, Yörüks” Today is no much different in “modern Turkey”- a part of “Kurds” who are/were “Kurds” are/were counted by “ethnic Turks” as “mountain Turks “ and the rest - according to the “hidden state”- a “Kurd” who is not a “Turk” is just a PKK terrorist.. The official ottoman statistic is one issue but the reality -this is the facts on the ground and in the society /country– just another issue. As the developments starting form the ende of 1890´s give evidence, as part of this “muslim” nation regarded themselves as “ethnically Turks and chosen people”, which gave birth to Turkish nationalism and Young Turkish movement. The same “Young Turkish movement/nationalism” did hijack the Ottoman Empire and finally went into the war in the name of “ottoman empire“ or “pan Turkism” (actually in 1914 in the name of “Ottoman Turkey” ) How big was the size of “these new borne or formed nation” in each Vilâyet? Armenian Patriarchate Statistics gives the most realistic number of Armenians.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Armenian_population I am referring to your posted statistics: Just two examples/ my understanding: a) Armenian Vilâyet Bitlis: Official ottoman | Talaat´s black | Armenian (Number of | black book | Patriarchate Armenians) | deported | statistic 20.142 | 114.704 | 218,404 In Bitlis there were apparently 671 Armenians churches and 207 Armenian schools (the number of church/school are more realistic for a population of 218,404. I do not have the number of students/teachers and Armenian clerics and other information regarding the Armenian social services in Bitlis! NOTE. The major /real cause of “famine” in Ottoman Turkey in 1916/1917 was the “deportation” of Armenian farmers. This fact tells us a lot…the impact of “deportation” … e.g about the real size and “economy power” of Armenian farmers had…etc.. b) Armenian Vilâyet Van with city of Van (almost capitol of “Turkish Armenia” – West Armenia : Official ottoman | Talaat´s black | Armenian (Number of | black book | Patriarchate Armenians) | deported | statistic 67.792 | 67.632 | 110.897 Nearly 50% of Armenians in Vilâyet of Van had been counted as "muslims". Number of deported Armenians till 1916 and heavy continuous resistance of Armenian population speaks for the trustworthy of statistic of Armenian Patriarchate! Deportation order for Van was of 2 May 1915. Given the fact of -Resistance- of the Armenian population in the city… that thousand of Armenians form the city Van where able to leave( being rescued a part evacuate by 1918) In this case most probably the number of deported of Armenians mentioned in Talsst´s black book (numbering 67.632 ) could had refer to the other settlements in “Vilâyet of van - "country side” – or just is a undercounting for political reasons! As far as I know the Armenian social life in the city of Van was more European and unique! 67.792 numbers of Armenians is manipulated . Given the fact that there were 537 Armenian churches and 192 schools, the number of about 110.000 Armenians and number of church/school are for Vilâyet van more realistic. Again I have no information about the number of teachers, social services, theaters, clerics, number of Armenian factories, shops , number of Armenians students studying in Europe/U.S form VAN and so on… !! NOTE: It seems Genocide deniers make only use of statistic of Armenian Patriarchate, when it comes to prove the number of Armenians , who did survive the genocide- this could be about 600.000 by 1921. Else when it comes to the real number of Armenians in Ottoman Turkey, the same genocide deniers do not accept the statistic of Armenian Patriarchate and are using the manipulated figure in “ottoman statistic” , about 1,100 000 (1.100 000- 600 000 = 500 000 or just 900 000 – 600 000 = 300 000 killed ) There is enough and sufficient evidence to conclude that the Armenian Genocide took place. Ottoman government /Empire was hijacked by a smal “ethnic Turkish minority”, dreaming of a "Turkish Empire only for the Turks" - on the top CUP & Co in 1914.The same CUP/ Ittihad government betrayed “Armenian Miliyet”. The same “party of power” - CUP- was responsible for the Armenian Genocide!!
15
25.10.2009 19:40
AB, if you still donot question those "patriarchate statistics" which funnily gives exact numbers of Nomadic Kurds(great success) and Laz (we still donot know how many ppl they are), I have no comment. Ottomans divide their population according to religions. There are 5 nations according to Ottomans (it was before and after the Armenian question arised): Protestants, Catholics, Gregorians (Armenian Apostholic Church), Orthodoxes, Jews, Muslims. It was not to divide Armenian population, because it was made this way since the foundation of the Ottoman Empire. Also if you look at Ottoman statistics, more than 90% of the Armenians were registered as Armenian apostholics. When it comes to ethnic Turks issue, almost all muslims in 1914 were identifying themselves as muslims first, then as Arabs,Kurds, Turkomans, Yörüks. This simple fact also shows that dividing the muslim population into subgroups was nonsense. Almost all identified themselves as muslims and subjects of caliphate (except the Alevis which were 20% of muslim population).
14
25.10.2009 14:10
Fromturkey I did study your posted „statistic“. I have posted my reply but apparently/ maybe my comment was to long, to be published as comments, no idea.. Any way, when it comes to the number of Armenians in Ottoman Empire - starting form Berlin congress a part is being counted as “Muslims” - later Armenians were “divide” – for political reason- in at least 3 groups (Gregorian, Catholic, Protestants)… Armenians are able to provide number of Armenians in each vilayet. Armenian Patriarchate Statistics is more resalable When it comes to the number of “Ethnic Turks”, we hear just a certain number for “Muslims”. It would be interesting to know from reliable sources (traceable) number of “ethnic Turks” in each Vilâyet by 1914 (Not the number of “Turkish speaking” or “Muslim” people but people who regarded themselves as “ethnic Turks”!)- taking in account the non stop flew of newcomers to “Anatolia” a and in 6 “Armenian Vilâyets”- West Armenia
13
23.10.2009 03:20
fromturkey, i'm not a scholar or professional historian to bring you numbers, usually those kind of informations are collected from different sources and using different methods, you can't bring one resource and claim you are correct. Ottamans started massacering Armenians starting early 1890s by 10s of thousands, so following common sense, you can tell Ottamans wanted to mathematically reduce Armenian numbers for 'some reason'. I don't think you can trust any numbers coming from the Ottamans after that, even only about Muslim numbers... as for the Armenian Patriarchate statistics, i can't argue with you as i don't have access to numbers. If the census was done before 1900s then Armenians wouldn't be inflating their numbers, the world was different then... Historians and sociologists can do some calculations based on older numbers, migration patterns and reproduction rates.... who knows which version of the numbers you are looking at? i can't proof they are wrong but you can't proof they are correct. it is a very tricky subject... an acceptable way for the problem in 1915 would have been maybe a similar solution with Greece, Armenians go eastwards and Turks go westwards, that way percentages would have balanced, we would have been living around Van in western Armenia in a relatively smaller geographical area and you would have been the western neighbor. but ottaman Turks decided to take care of the 'little' problem by simply wiping out the Armenians from their lands...
12
22.10.2009 23:51
Spurktsi, I am almost sure that "Armenian Patriarchate Statistics" are contradicting the facts because of the reasons I stated below. According to "Armenian Patriarchate Statistics", there were 1.018.000 Armenians (%39 of the population, largest among all) in the six vilayets, on the contary, according to Ottoman Statistics of 1914, there were 784.917 Armenians (%19 of the population). The problem is not here because the difference between two statistics is 234.000 people. (So, we donot have to double right? And we know they have at least as many reasons as Ottomans to exaggerate the numbers) However, the political meaning of the problem here lies in the number of muslims in those six vilayets, because "Armenian Patriarchate Statistics" intended to show muslim population less then it was. "Armenian Patriarchate Statistics" divided the muslim population (3.173.000 according to Ottoman statistics) by two (1.432.000), though they had no tool to figure out muslim population.
11
22.10.2009 22:16
Considering that few years later a genocide was committed I don't know how much ottaman numbers r accurate. How I feel, without proof, that If ottamans said 1.2 million the reality would be double that. Probably we can agree that it was between 1.2 and 2.2 million, a relatively huge range but the number should be somewhere there...
10
22.10.2009 20:02
"I think ottoman population around 1915 was about 20 million and lees than 2 or 3% were ethnic Turks" Wow, good invention. How did you find this out mr. professor? You started to talk like Halaçoğlu in the opposite way.
9
22.10.2009 19:59
I said I think "Armenian Patriarchate Statistics" is not realistic because it also gives unrealistic numbers for the muslim population of the empire. Patriarchate Statistics gives the number 1.432.000 for muslims in the six vilayets while Ottoman statistics give 3.173.000. How did they determine number of muslims???? Those patriarchate statistics also divided muslim population into sub-groups such as Laz, Nomadic Kurds as if anybody in the world had any records to decide how many nomadic Kurds there were in 1914. The simple fact is that these "patriarchate" numbers were aimed at showing the muslim population less than it was, and armenian population more than it was. So, Ottoman statistics seem to be most reliable, but I also believe that Ottoman officers probably lowered Armenian population.
8
22.10.2009 19:27
Ottoman statistics (1914) gives 13.339.000 for the whole population of the Empire with 1.234.671 of them Armenians. Notice that Ottoman statistics were only in Ottoman Turkish (not to show that Armenians were a small minority) and they were prepared for the internal affairs of the empire (education, tax, military service). Below are the numbers: Ottoman state statistics: Vilâyets Muslims Armenians Edirne 360.411 19.773 Adana 341.903 52.650 Antalya 235.762 630 Ankara 877.285 51.556 Halep 576.320 20.142 Aydın 1.249.067 20.142 Bitlis 309.999 20.142 Bolu 399.281 2.970 Bursa 474.114 60.119 Kayseri 184.292 50.174 İstanbul 560.434 82.880 Çanakkale 149.903 2.474 Diyarbakır 492.101 65.850 Canik 265.950 27.319 Erzurum 633.297 134.377 Eskişehir 140.678 8.592 İzmit 226.859 55.852 İçel 102.034 341 Karahisar 277.359 7.439 Karasi 359.804 8.653 Kastamonu 737.302 8.959 Harput 446.379 79.971 Kütahya 303.348 4.548 Maraş 152.645 32.322 Menteşe 188.916 12 Niğde 227.100 4.936 Urfa 149.384 16.718 Sivas 939.735 147.099 Trabzon 921.128 68.899 Çatalca 20.048 842 Van 179.380 67.792 Zor 65.770 232 It is estimated that 30-35% of Turkey's today population are of Balkan or Caucasian origin (Albanians, Circassians, Georgians, Pomaks, Turks, etc), which lived massacres, deportations, opression and escaped/expelled. So, if we subtract Kurdish, Arab, Greek, Armenian and immigrant population from 13 million, then we will have at least 5-6 million ppl whose mother tongues were Turkish. AB, I am waiting for your answer. NOTE: I also think that the "Armenian Patriarchate Statistics" is totally invention, but I am not sure of that, and I expect your ideas about those numbers.
7
22.10.2009 18:20
Spurktsi it can’t be 8 mil! I think ottoman population around 1915 was about 20 million and lees than 2 or 3% were ethnic Turks, beside this most ethnic Turks used to live in Thessaloniki rather in so called central “Anatolia” and West Armenia. “Arabian nations” like the Christian Armenians dreamed of a life/time without Turkish rule. According to Turkish: Christian Armenians were “deported” apparently form “war areas” in “Anatolia” to “secure areas” - this was to “Arabic lands (Middle East ) – but in Arabic land there were many well organized and open revolts against Ottoman rulers, fighting for independence and getting help form some European countries! How comes that the Ottoman Turks didn’t “deportee” the “Muslim Arabs” to more secure areas in central Anatolia, if there were no plans to get ride of “Armenians” (i.e. annihilate them), in order to “eliminate” the possibility of creation of it can’t be 8 mil! I think ottoman population around 1915 was about 20 million and lees than 2 or 3% were ethnic Turks, beside this most ethnic Turks used to live in Thessaloniki rather in so called central “Anatolia” and West Armenia. “Arabian nations” like the Christian Armenians dreamed of a life/time without Turkish rule. According to Turkish: Christian Armenians were “deported” apparently form “war areas” in “Anatolia” to “secure areas” - this was to “Arabic lands (Middle East ) – but in Arabic land there were many well organized and open revolts against Ottoman rulers, fighting for independence and soem forced getting openly help form some European countries! How comes that the Ottoman Turks didn’t “deportee” the “Muslim Arabs” to more secure areas in central Anatolia, if there were no plans to get ride of “Armenians” and otehr christians in "Anatolia" (i.e. annihilate them), in order to “eliminate” the possibility of creation of an independent Armenia – even after the war!?
6
22.10.2009 10:07
This plays in congress are done just to put pressure on Turkey for ratification of protocols
5
22.10.2009 01:21
In addition, I have to say, there are also hardliners against doing business with Cuba as there are hardliners against doing business with Turkey. I know some of the middle class Cubans who left Cuba after the Revolution and were forced to leave all their homes and property behind; and some of my Armenian relatives were massacred. The Cubans continue to blacklist doing relations with Cuba; remember Bay of Pigs too; and the Armenians blacklist Turkey. Having said all that, I am still for reconciliation with Turkey, and so I am not a hardliner. Just a couple of my thoughts on this. I am hoping USA will open trade with Cuba also.
4
21.10.2009 22:37
AB, i remember reading some 8-9 years ago about an 8 million figure. I'm not sure if it was the total population of the Ottaman empire or just Turks. but i remember thinking back then that there were some 2 million Armenians among 8 million 'others'. i'm not claiming that this is reliable but i'm sure the number could be 'easily' retrieved.
3
21.10.2009 20:01
Senator Robert Mendendez's parents left Cuba during the Batista regime. He has also introduced anti-Cuban legislation (against Castro). I also posted this information on a Turkish website because I thought it was interesting to know a little about his background. A good friend indeed.
2
21.10.2009 17:14
Dear AAA, And you at the same time support S.S. and these shameless protocols? How can this be explained?
1
21.10.2009 16:41
World should know that Armenia and Armenian people have there own David-Irving- THIS IS THE TURKISH GOERMONT ITSELF! Does somebody knows how big was the population of Ottoman Turkey before Balkan war and specially around 1914/1915”? How big was the number of “ethnic Turks” at that time (in 1914)- specially in “Anatolia” (without the new comers form Balkan and Greec)? Maybe there number was less than 600 000 – let say 570 000 in Ottoman Turkey, . Does have somebody an idea? Armenian historian do ignore - do nout use to deal- with such facts/issues. We are insetad always forced to prove how big the number of Armenians was etc!!
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